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June 23rd, 2004, 05:10 PM
reason

Quote:

Originally posted by Sea Gull:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do, however, wonder if we can scour the Bible to come up with equally violent passages about nonbelievers of the Christian faith.
I'm betting we can.

Except you don't see Christian fundamentalists blowing up trains and taking out buildings with hijacked jets and cutting people's heads off lately. So what's your point?<hr /></blockquote>While you missed the obvious point terribly, I'll follow your lead and say I think we can find all sorts of Christian violence around the world through history.

Abortion Clinics
Fags
Witches
Army of God

I can't think of a better example of Christian violence than Northern Ireland. Seems they've done quite a bit of bombing over the years.

As a Catholic, I feel comfortable saying that my church's record is hardly spotless on the human rights front.

[ June 23, 2004 02:43 PM: Message edited by: reason ]
June 23rd, 2004, 05:33 PM
Piña

Quote:

Originally posted by Sea Gull:
As opposed to the elements of the Democratic Party who have turned it into the Jackass Pretending-Ostrich Burying Its Head In The Sand party?

Regardless of how you feel about the politics of the democratic party one thing you cannot say about it is that it is being coopted by religious fanatics who don't care who dies as long as they're fundamentalist agenda goes forward.

The republican party is turning into something very very ugly and contrary to the principles this country was founded on.

Quote:

I'll venture to say there are more Muslims who approve (either openly or secretly) of Jihad than Christians who would approve of a similar campaign on our part.

How would you know? Really, think about how we get our information and what it gets filtered through. Look at the pictures of atrocities that anti-americans have committed. How many people are actually participating. Do you know how easy it is to make ten people look like a crowd of dozens. To make fifty seem like hundreds. Then think about what images anti-american factions want to promote and what they would do to stage events and orchestrate them to seem much much larger and widespread than they seem.

Quote:

[/qb]Ah but wait, what about my own comments of "10,000-1 for 9-11"? I'm not a Christian and never claimed to be.[/QB]

Christian or not you're right out there with the rest of the cheerleaders mouthing the hate speech that makes this whole unneceassary travesty possible. Not all christians are sheep and not all sheep are christians.
June 23rd, 2004, 05:56 PM
reason

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EDITORIAL: DEFAMING ISLAM The Washington Post, 10/6/02 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2002Oct4.html ONE OF THE high-water marks after Sept. 11 last year was President Bush's leadership in urging Americans not to condemn Islam because of the actions of extremists in the name of their faith. He set aside his war planning to visit the mosque at the Islamic Center of Washington, where he reminded the nation that "Islam is peace" and admonished Americans not to take out their anger on innocent American Arabs and Muslims... The same, however, cannot be said of some key leaders of the religious right in America who are counted among President Bush's closest political allies. And on their noxious mix of religious bigotry and anti-Muslim demagoguery, Mr. Bush's silence is deafening. We have in mind several religious conservative leaders who count Mr. Bush as one of their own. There is the Rev. Franklin Graham, Billy Graham's son and successor and a participant in the president's inauguration, who has declared Islam a "very evil and wicked religion." And there is Christian Coalition founder and television evangelist Pat Robertson, who said that "to think that [Islam] is a peaceful religion is fraudulent." Mr. Robertson, in full attack mode himself, called the prophet Muhammad "an absolute wild-eyed fanatic . . . a robber and brigand . . . a killer." And, in an appearance on the CBS program "60 Minutes" to be broadcast tonight, the Rev. Jerry Falwell completes the demonization of a religion by smearing the prophet of Islam as "a terrorist." These are not just the words of a fringe movement. The speakers are leaders among the religious right in America, a movement close to a president who speaks their language. Their embrace is mutual. It therefore falls to the president to break his silence on their gross distortion and to put some distance between their rhetoric and his own professions of tolerance. To avert his gaze from their actions is to permit the Falwells, Robertsons and Grahams to legitimize their own perverse teachings through their association with the president of the United States. If their words are not his, then the president must say so.
June 23rd, 2004, 06:10 PM
Emperor Napoleon

Quote:

Christian or not you're right out there with the rest of the cheerleaders mouthing the hate speech that makes this whole unneceassary travesty possible

You got me there Pina! The attacks of 9/11 are all part of my diseased imagination. There is no Islamic Jihad. Osama Bin Laden is a kind and loving cleric who has been living peacefully in Afghanistan working with the Taliban to raise the living standard of all Muslims. They do not treat women like dirt, they do not force gays to walk off of cliffs to their deaths, owning a dog in Iran is not considered a crime. For a woman to have a baby out of wedlock extremist Islamic nations simply look the other way and chant "mistakes happen", love them both. Ancient Buddhist statues in Afghanistan have been preserved by the Taliban even though their own interpretation of the Kuran states they are evil and should be destroyed. Palestinians do not strap bombs to their children. Saddam Hussein never hurt anyone and his sons were brutally murdered by the US military-industrial cabal. Saddam Hussein did not offer $25,000 cash to families of suicide bombers who attacked Israeli targets. Saudi Arabia is a progressive nation that honors and encourages religious freedom. We attacked the USS Cole ourselves and blamed it on bin Laden. We also blew up our own embassy in Yemen. Suicide bombers did not kill hundreds of US soldiers in a barracks attack in 1983. Israeli atheletes were not slaughtered by Palestinians at the 1973 olympics. I can't imagine why I thought such things in the first place. I must be a victim of right-wing mind control.
June 23rd, 2004, 06:30 PM
Piña

SeeGee

Uhm, let me see if I follow.

I say that cheerleading for christianfundies is a bad and dangerous thing and your rebuttal is to point out the atrocities that come from islamicfundies being in power or committing terrorist acts.

Clue Train Hint #1 - A fundie is a fundie is a fundie.

In case you haven't been paying attention I've been pointing out that religious fundamentalism of any stripe is a highly dangerous thing. Dangerous to life and limb of a certainty but also dangerous to the american ideal.

Regardless of the flavor of fundamentalism the one thing that is a given is that they do not tolerate those who disagree with them to live.

The fanatic fundies that have hijacked the republican party are working towards an america where most of your examples would simply business as usual.
June 23rd, 2004, 06:40 PM
Emperor Napoleon

Quote:

In case you haven't been paying attention I've been pointing out that religious fundamentalism of any stripe is a highly dangerous thing

Yes it is. And currently Western Civilization is under attack from Islamic extremism. I think some of the Christian fundamentalism of which you speak is a reaction to the Islamic aggression that has been building and growing in scope since the Arabs lost the 1967 war they started in their unsuccessful bid to annihilate Israel.
June 23rd, 2004, 07:04 PM
Piña

Quote:

Originally posted by Sea Gull:
Yes it is. And currently Western Civilization is under attack from Islamic extremism.

Yes, it is. Under attack by Islamic extremists. It is critically important to remember who it is that is attacking us.

Quote:

[/qb] I think some of the Christian fundamentalism of which you speak is a reaction to the Islamic aggression that has been building and growing in scope since the Arabs lost the 1967 war they started in their unsuccessful bid to annihilate Israel.[/QB]

One man's condo wall is another man's, uhm, well it's still a fucking wall but he's on the other side of it! (Stupid damned metaphors.)

To many in the Islamic world we are the aggressor. Doesn't matter if you agree with us being an aggressor or not as the perception is what's important as a motivator.

See, I believe that binLaden sees himself as a freedom fighter. To my mind he's a terrorist but he probably thinks it's the only way to protect his people. I'm not excusing him just saying that our perspective is not universal.

I also beleive that christian fundies think that what they are doing is a good thing. They also are very very wrong but they don't think so and to put the icing on the cake they think they're on a mission from god. Just like Islamic fundies.

Funny thing is it's the same damned god. Well, pretty much.

Think about how you would react if we were invaded. Hell, think about how did react when you saw us as being under attack. You took off the gloves and were/are willing to committ any act to fight back. Now think how you would react if you thought we were being invaded.

I still like the Red Dawn example. They did what they had to to fight back. Spider holes, ambushing soldiers and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a bit about explosives, a bicycle and a checkpoint in there. Sound familiar?
June 23rd, 2004, 07:13 PM
travelinman

No, this is not a reaction to anything recent. While a lot of evil things have been done in the name of Christianity (especially Catholicism) the Christian doctrine is one of peace. From it start, Islam has preached that if you can't convert you kill.
June 23rd, 2004, 07:17 PM
Piña

Quote:

Originally posted by travelinman:
[QB]No, this is not a reaction to anything recent.[QB]

Funny I seem to remember invading their country just a little while ago.
June 23rd, 2004, 07:22 PM
jumper69

Quote:

Funny I seem to remember invading their country just a little while ago.

Would be relevant if islam had only just since then taken up terrorism. But this has been going on long before we ever had Iraq or Islam on our radar screen.

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